KEYNOTE
KEYNOTE
2022/07/08
2022/10/25
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"desc": "<span><b><u>Convener 召集人<br></u></b><br></span><b>Prof. Dr. Aaron Corn</b>\n<br>Professor Aaron Corn is an\nEthnomusicologist with a research background in Music, Indigenous Knowledge,\nCuratorial Studies and Information Technologies. He is the Inaugural Director\nof the Indigenous Knowledge Institute at the University of Melbourne, and serves\nas a Director of the National Recording Project for Indigenous Performance in\nAustralia. He has worked closely with \nAustralian Indigenous colleagues \nin pursuing their \nown research interests since \n1997, and has \nheld multiple grants \nand fellowships from \nthe Australian Research Council\n(ARC) and other organisations. His work with Indigenous colleagues, expressive\nforms, heritage collections and applications of information technologies\nengages with intellectual traditions \nthat remain fundamental \nto Indigenous cultural \nsurvival in Australia and inform\ncontemporary engagements of Indigenous Australians with others.\n\nHis \nresearch into Indigenous \nintellectual traditions foregrounds \nthe unique perspectives of Indigenous\nAustralians on public opinions, government policies and scholarly debates that\nimpact upon the cultural, economic, political and technological futures of\ntheir communities. He has produced numerous concert tours of Australian\nIndigenous performance traditions \nfor major venues \nand festivals in \nAustralia and overseas, \nand his work \nwith Australian Indigenous colleagues and stakeholders to apply new\ninformation technologies to discovering \nand accessing their \ncollected cultural heritage \nin collections worldwide \nhas engendered new approaches to curatorial policies and practices among\nmemory institutions internationally. He has served as National President of the\nMusicological Society of Australia and was a Member of the ARC College of\nExperts.\n\n \n\n<br>Professor Aaron Corn 是一位民族音樂學家，同時亦具有音樂、原住民知識、策展研究和信息技術等領域之研究背景。目前擔任墨爾本大學「原住民知識研究所」的創始所長；同時亦主持「澳洲原住民表演國家錄音計畫」(NRPIPA)。\n\n自 1997 年以來，他一直與澳洲原住民同僚緊密合作以追尋他們自身的研究興趣，並獲得了澳洲研究委員會（ARC）和其他組織的多項獎金和研究金。\n他與原住民同僚的合作、表現形式、文化遺產採集紀錄、和資訊科技與知識傳統緊密結合的應用，仍然是澳洲原住民文化賴以生存的基礎，也讓外界知曉澳洲原住民的當代發展。他對澳洲原住民知識傳統的研究奠定了澳洲原住民對於公共意見、政府政策、以及學術論爭的獨特視野，並深刻影響原住民社群在文化、經濟、政治與科技方面的未來。\n\n他曾為澳洲和海外的主要表演場館及音樂節製作了無數場澳洲原住民表演傳統的巡迴表演。他與澳洲原住民同儕及相關機構合作，應用新的資訊科技來探索、運作他們在世界各地所採集到的文化遺產，為國際歷史記憶機構帶來策展政策和實踐的新方法。\n\n他曾擔任澳洲音樂學學會全國主席，並且是 ARC 專業學院的成員。\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n <br><span><br><u><b>Keynote Panelists 專題演講者</b></u></span><b>\n</b><br><span><br><b>Akawyan Pakawya 林清美</b></span>\n\n \n\n<br>Lin Qingmei (Ethnic name, Akawyan\nPakawyan), Pinuyumayan, was born on February 1, 28th. He has won the provincial\noutstanding sports youth representative, the county's Model Women prize, the\nprovincial dance competition winning prize, the curator of thousand-person\nconvention dance for mamy times , the artistic director of the Puyuma chapter\nof the indigenous music and dance series of the National Theater, the National\nGolden-Peseverance Award, Great-Love Award, national tourist guide license...\n\n \n\nIn 1971, she became in debt for taking care\nof his mother who was suffering from stroke and his brother who was injured and\ndisabled.\n\n \n\nStarting from the August of 1980, in order\nto preserve the unique singing and dancing traditions of indigenous tribes and\nreturn to the cultural practice of the culture of the Mother- Land, once again\nshe was in debt in order to establish the \"Taiwan High-Mountain Dance Thertre\nCultural and Art Service Troupe\". As a teacher and choreographer, she\nworked with various tribal people, excavated and regained the memories of the\nlong-lost original ballads, dance steps and legends, and consequently,\nrecovered the unique culture of each ethnic group in the course of performance.\n\n \n\nIn recent years, she has been focusing on\nthe Puyuma ethnic group, her own mother-tribe, engaged in the collection and\ncreation of the oral traditions of song and dance of various tribes, editing\nethnic language dictionaries, and actively training young students from various\ntribes and ethnic language teachers, hoping to use this as the core seed of\nestablishing a cultural team belonging to each ethnic group and tribe.\n\n \n\n<br>林清美 (族名 Akawyan Pakawyan) 卑南族人\n民國 28 年 2 月 1 日生。曾獲全省優秀體育青年代表、全縣模範婦女、全省民族舞蹈比賽優勝獎、多次千人大會舞策劃總監、國家劇院原住民族樂舞系列卑南篇藝術總監、全國金毅獎、大愛獎、國家觀光導遊證\n\n照…。\n\n \n\n71 年為照顧醫治中風母親及受傷全殘弟弟而開始舉債，\n\n \n\n八十年八月為保存原住民部落特有的歌舞傳統，回歸母體的文化實踐，又再度舉債創立了『台灣高山舞集文化藝術服務團』，奔走於各族群間教舞編舞，以當地部落族人為演出者，在共同思考與激盪中挖掘出失傳已久的原味歌謠、舞步與傳說，也在演出中找回各族群的特質文化與光芒。\n\n \n\n近年來則將重心回歸卑南母體部落，從事各部落歌舞傳說之蒐集編創，族語詞典編輯，並積極培訓來自各部落族群的青年學子以及族語教學老師，期以此為核心種子，回鄉\n\n籌建屬於各族群部落自有的文化團隊。\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n<br><br><b>Marcia Langton</b><br>Professor Marcia Langton AM is an\nanthropologist and geographer, and since 2000 has held the Foundation Chair of\nAustralian Indigenous Studies at the University of Melbourne. She has produced\na large body of knowledge in the areas of political and legal anthropology,\nIndigenous agreements and engagement with the minerals industry, and Indigenous\nculture and art. Her role in the Empowered Communities project under contract\nto the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet and as a member of the Expert\nPanel on Constitutional Recognition of Indigenous Australians are evidence of\nProfessor Langton's academic reputation, policy commitment and impact,\nalongside her role as a prominent public intellectual.\n\n \n\nHer 2012 Boyer lecture series titled The\nQuiet Revolution: Indigenous People and the Resources Boom is one of her recent\ncontributions to public debate, and added to her influence and reputation in\ngovernment and private sector circles. In 1993 she was made a member of the\nOrder of Australia in recognition of her work in anthropology and the advocacy\nof Aboriginal rights.\n\n \n\nProfessor Langton is a Fellow of the\nAcademy of Social Sciences in Australia, a Fellow of Trinity College, Melbourne\nand an Honorary Fellow of Emmanuel College at the University of Queensland. In\n2016 Professor Langton was honoured as a University of Melbourne Redmond Barry\nDistinguished Professor. In further recognition as one of Australia’s most\nrespected Indigenous Academics Professor Langton has in 2017 been appointed as\nthe first Associate Provost at the University of Melbourne.\n\n \n\n<br>Marcia Langton AM 教授是一位人類學家和地理學家，自 2000\n年以來一直擔任墨爾本大學澳洲原住民研究基金會主席。她在政治和法律人類學，與礦產行業的原住民協議和參與以及原住民文化和藝術領域積累了豐富的知識。根據總理和內閣部的合同，她在賦權社區項目中的角色以及作為澳大利亞原住民憲法承認專家小組的成員，證明了Langton 教授的學術聲譽、政策承諾和影響力，以及她作為傑出的公共知識分子代表。\n\n \n\n她在 2012 年的博耶（Boyer）系列講座題為《安靜的革命：原住民和資源繁榮》，是\n\n她最近對公開辯論的貢獻之一，並增加了她在政府和私營部門圈子中的影響力和聲譽。\n\n1993 年，由於她在人類學方面的工作和對原住民權利的倡導工作，她被授予澳大利亞勳章。\n\n \n\nLangton 教授是澳大利亞社會科學院的院士，墨爾本三一學院的院士和昆士蘭大學伊曼\n\n紐爾學院的名譽院士。 2016 年，Langton 教授被授予墨爾本 Redmond Barry 傑出教授。作為澳大利亞最受尊敬的原住民學者之一，Langton 教授於 2017 年被任命為墨爾本大\n\n學第一位副教務長。\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n<br><br><b>Prof. Dr. José Jorge de Carvalho\n</b>\n \n\n<br>José \nJorge de Carvalho \n- Ph.D. in \nAnthropology at the \nQueen’s University of \nBelfast; Professor of Anthropology at the University of Brasília; Head\nof the Institute of Inclusion in Higher Education and Research, of the National\nResearch Council, located in the University of Brasília. Was Visiting Professor\nat Rice University, University of Florida-Gainesville and Tinker Professor of\nMusic at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Has been the main proponent of\naffirmative actions (especially cuotas) for Black and Indigenous students in\nBrazilian universities. In \nthe current decade \nhe has formulated \nthe transcultural project entitled Meeting of Knowledges, aimed\nat including masters of traditional Afro-Brazilian and Indigenous knowledges (including\nmusic and other art forms) to act as lecturers of regular courses in\ninstitutions of higher education and as researchers.\n\n <br>\n\nJosé Jorge de Carvalho 於貝爾法斯特女皇大學取得人類學博士；\n目前為巴西利亞大學人類學教授； 巴西利亞大學國家研究委員會高等教育暨研究包容性研究所所長。曾是萊斯大學，佛羅里達州蓋恩斯維爾大學的客座教授和威斯康星大學麥迪遜分校的音樂教授。一直是巴西大學推動黑人及原住民學生平權行動的主要支持者。\n在最近的十年中，他制定了名為“知識面對面”的跨文化項目，旨在囊括巴西非裔和原住民傳統知識（包括音樂和其他藝術形式）的大師，以作為高等教育機構常規課程的講師和研究人員\n。\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n<br><br><b>Jean Ngoya Kidula\n</b>\n \n\n<br>Jean \nNgoya Kidula, Professor \nof Music (Ethnomusicology), holds \na Ph.D. from \nthe University of California \n(1998), an M.M. \nfrom East Carolina \nUniversity, and a \nB.Ed. (Music/French) from the University of Nairobi. She joined the\nUniversity of Georgia in 1998 after having taught at Kenyatta University and\nPomona College. She teaches African Music, African-American Music, Survey of\nMusic Cultures of the World, Topics in World Music Cultures, History, theory\nand methods in ethnomusicology, Seminars in Ethnomusicology. She also directs\nan African Music Ensemble. Her research\nand publications are in African musicology, indigenous, contemporary and\npopular music in Africa, gospel music in Africa and Sweden, African-American\nreligious music, and composition in Africa and the Diaspora. She also is active\nin the performance of religious music, African choral music, and the Medieval\nand Renaissance vocal repertory.\n\n \n\n<br>民族音樂學教授，Kidula 於 1998 年取得加州大學博士學位，擁有東卡羅來納大學的音樂碩士學位，以及內羅畢大學音樂與法語的教育學士學位。在肯雅塔大學和波莫納學院任教後，她於 1998 年加入佐治亞大學。她教非洲音樂，非裔美國人音樂，世界音樂\n\n文化概論，世界音樂文化主題，民族音樂學的歷史，理論和方法，民族音樂學研討會。\n\n她還指揮非洲音樂合奏團。她的研究和出版物涉及非洲音樂學，非洲的本土音樂，當\n\n代音樂和流行音樂，非洲和瑞典的福音音樂，非裔美國人的宗教音樂以及非洲和散居\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n僑民的作品。她也活躍於宗教音樂，非洲合唱音樂以及中世紀和文藝復興時期的聲樂\n\n表演。",
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"desc": "<span>Hello, everyone. I’m Professor Aaron Corn, Inaugural Director of the Indigenous Knowledge Institute at the University of Melbourne, and a Director of the National Recording Project For Indigenous Performance in Australia. <br><br>Firstly, I’d like to acknowledge the Indigenous peoples of the many different lands from which we meet and pay respect to their elders past and present.<br><br>I’d also like to thank Professor Yuh-Fen Tseng in Taiwan for inviting me to chair this panel and thank all of you for joining us for these exciting keynote presentations today.<br><br>In this panel, we have four brilliant speakers, who generously share their expertise in Indigenous music and dance from four different continents. They are: <ul><li>Akawyan Pakawyan from Taiwan, </li><li>Marcia Langton from Australia, </li><li>José Jorge de Carvalho from Brazil, and </li><li>Jean Ngoya Kidula from Kenya, who joins us from the United States of America. </li></ul><br>The collective insights of these presenters beautifully illustrate the immense value of this Study Group in the Making as a unique international forum for fostering vital new dialogues among Indigenous people and allied researchers who share common interests in supporting Indigenous music and dance around the world.<br><br>We recorded these presentations in the week of 9 November 2020 to enable translation into both Chinese and English, and you’ll see they’ve been lightly edited to save time by removing technical glitches. However, all of our keynote panellists join us here today for questions and discussion once their pre-recorded presentations have run, and there are, of course, fuller biographies for each of them in your program.<br><br>So, now, it is my great honour to introduce our first keynote speaker, Akawyan Pakawyan of the Puyuma people of Taiwan. Born in 1938, Akawyan has had a long and distinguished career a teacher and choreographer, who has worked with various Indigenous peoples in Taiwan to maintain their unique music and dance traditions. In 1980, she established the Taiwan High-Mountain Dance, Theatre, Culture and Art Service Troupe to strengthen the performance traditions of her own people, and has since received many national honours in recognition of her work, including the Golden Peseverance Award. She has also been Artistic Director of the Puyuma Chapter of the Taiwanese National Theater’s Indigenous Music and Dance Series. In this presentation, Professor Yun-Fen Tseng gives a brief introduction in English and then interviews Akawyan in Chinese.<br><br>*\t*\t*<br><br>Professor Marcia Langton, PhD, is an anthropologist and geographer. In the year 2000, she was appointed as the Foundation Chair of Australian Indigenous Studies at the University of Melbourne, where she now also serves as a Redmond Barry Distinguished Professor and Associate Provost. Marcia is one of Australia’s foremost public intellectuals. Her wide-ranging advocacy for the political and legal rights of Indigenous Australians since the 1970s has significantly changed Australia’s policy landscape for the better. In 2002, Marcia was a Convenor of Australia’s Inaugural Symposium in Indigenous Music and Dance at the Garma Festival, and soon after became a Founding Member of the Steering Committee of the National Recording Project for Indigenous Performance in Australia. She is a Fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences in Australia and, in 2020, was honoured by being made an Officer of the Order of Australia. In this presentation, you’ll see me on screen with Marcia as I provide technical support for her presentation.<br><br>*\t*\t*<br><br>Professor José Jorge de Carvalho, PhD, is a Professor of Anthropology at the University of Brasília, where he is also Head of the National Research Council’s Institute for Inclusion in Higher Education and Research. He has been a main proponent for the inclusion of Afro-Brazilian and Indigenous students in Brazilian universities and, over the past decade, has delivered a national transcultural program called the Meeting of Knowledges, which engages master exponents of Afro-Brazilian and Indigenous performance traditions as researchers and lecturers across 15 institutions of higher education throughout Brazil. In this presentation, I interview Jorge about Indigenous music and dance in Brazil, and about his important Meeting of Knowledges program.<br><br>*\t*\t*<br><br>Professor Jean Ngoya Kidula, PhD, is a Professor of Music in Ethnomusicology at the University of Georgia, USA, where she teaches across African music, African-American music, World Music and Ethnomusicology, and directs the African Music Ensemble. Her research interests span African musicology, gospel music in Africa and Sweden, African-American religious music, composition in Africa and its Diaspora, and Indigenous, contemporary and popular music in Africa. She also actively performs religious music, African choral music, and the Medieval and Renaissance vocal repertory. In this brilliant presentation by Jean on the Indigenous musical roots of Kenya’s national anthem, I’ve re-inserted Jean’s video examples in post-production.<br><br>大家好，我是墨爾本大學原住民知識研究所創所主任 Aaron Corn 教授，我同時也擔任 澳洲國家原住民表演錄音計畫(NRPIPA)的負責人。 首先，我想向許多不同土地上與我們相遇的原住民族，以及他們過去與現在的耆老們表達敬意。我也希望對曾毓芬老師表示感謝。感謝她邀請我來主持這個小組發表，也感謝大家共同參與今天這些令人激動的專題演講。<br><br>在今天的小組發表中，我們有四位傑出的演講者與我們分享來自世界四個不同洲際的原住民樂舞專業見解。他們是來自台灣的 Akawyan Pakawyan、 來自澳洲的 Marcia Langton 、來自巴西的José Jorge de Carvalho、 以及此刻身在美國，來自肯亞的 Jean Ngoya Kidula 。這些發表者的集體洞見充分例證出這個正在創建中的研究小組作為一個獨特的國際論壇所擁有的巨大價值。它促進了原住民與同樣支持全世界原住民樂舞的同盟研究者之間重要的新對話。<br><br>我們在 2020 年 11 月 9 日那一週錄製了這些發言，並將它們翻譯成了中英雙語的版 本。為了節省時間，這些發言中的一些技術故障也被剪輯掉了，但是我們所有的專題演講者今天都有出席，並會在播放完他們提前錄製的發言之後回答各位的問題並進行 討論。大家也可以在議程冊中找到各位演講者的詳細介紹。 <br><br>現在，我將榮幸地向大家介紹第一位演講者，來自台灣卑南族的 Akawyan Pakawyan。Akawyan Pakawyan（漢名林清美 族名）出生於 1938 年 2 月 1 日，是一位久負盛名的 教師和編舞家，長期與台灣不同原住民族群合作以保存他們獨特的樂舞傳統。1980 年，為強化自身族群的表演傳統，她創立了「台灣高山舞集文化藝術服務團」，自此獲得了 許多國家級榮譽，如全國金毅獎。她也曾擔任國家劇院原住民族樂舞系列卑南篇的藝術總監。在今天的演講中，曾毓芬教授將首先用英文進行簡短的介紹，之後將以漢語對林老師進行訪談。<br><br> * * *<br><br>Marcia Langton AM 教授是一位人類學家和地理學家，自 2000 年以來一直擔任墨爾本 大學澳洲原住民研究基金會主席，同時也是墨爾本大學 Redmond Barry 傑出教授以及 副教務長。Langton 教授是澳洲傑出的公共知識分子代表。自 1970 年代起，她就開始 為澳洲原住民爭取政治法律權益，大幅改善了澳洲的政策環境。2002 年，身為澳洲珈瑪節(Garma Festival)原住民樂舞論壇召集人的她，很快又成為了澳洲國家原住民表演錄音計畫指導委員會的發起人。Langton 教授是澳洲社會科學院的院士，並在 2020 年光榮地被授予澳洲官佐勳章(Officer of the Order of Australia)。在今天的演講中，我也將會出現在預錄影片中，為 Langton 教授提供技術支援。<br><br> * * *<br><br>José Jorge de Carvalho 是巴西利亞大學的人類學教授，同時也擔任該校國家研究委員會之高等教育暨研究的包容性研究所所長。他一直是巴西大學推動黑人及原住民學生平權行動的主要支持者。在過去的十年中，他策劃了名為「知識相遇」（Meeting of Knowledges）的國家級跨文化學程，在15 所巴西高等教育機構中將巴西非裔和原住民表演傳統藝師聘用為正規課程的講師和研究人員 。在今天的演講中，我將訪談 Jorge， 請他暢談巴西原住民樂舞現況以及他重要的「知識相遇」學習計畫。<br><br> * * *<br><br>Jean Ngoya Kidula 教授是美國喬治亞大學民族音樂學教授。她在那裡教授非洲音樂，非裔美國人音樂、世界音樂與民族音樂學，還擔任非洲音樂合奏的指導。她的研究興趣涉及非洲音樂學、非洲和瑞典的福音音樂、非裔美國人的宗教音樂、非洲及其移民的音樂創作以及非洲的原生、當代及流行音樂等。 <br><br><br></span>",
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"desc": "<div><b>1. Brief Introduction to Taiwan Aborigines</b></div><div>台灣的原住民屬南島語民族。雖然台灣的面積很小,但有著豐富的原住民文化。在經歷了</div><div>多年的殖民歷史之後,現在台灣存有 16 個官方承認的少數民族。</div><div><br>台灣大部分人口來自中國大陸,總人口以漢族閩南人、客家人以及二戰後的漢族新移民及</div><div>後代為主。原住民佔總人口的百分之二。</div><div><br></div><div><b>2. Interviewing Akawyan Pakawyan by Yuh-Fen Tseng</b></div><div><br></div><div><b>Tseng:</b> You’ve been leading your people practicing traditional music and dance for so long, do you still have enough energy to attract the younger generation to learn those old ancestral songs</div><div>that you collected in the past? What are some approaches that you apply to do that?</div><div><b>Akawyan:</b> I think I still can. Today’s young people have a different way of thinking, but we can cooperate with that, for example, adding some elements they like into our music and dance. I often say that you can be creative, but the core of our tradition has to make up a larger portion than those newly created content. It is only in this way that we can gradually get young people’s</div><div>attention. It will be really hard if we try to impose our elders’ mindset on young people.</div><div><b>Tseng:</b> Can you make some examples?</div><div><b>Akaway:</b> For example, we can use guitar, electronic instruments, or other instruments like samba drum. We can add some modern elements in our music and dance, but not too much. Then we can slowly attract young people to our traditions. It is not easy to do that. When I want to get more young people, I will gather some people in their middle age first and they will start to cooperate with younger people.</div><div><b>Tseng:</b> In the performance of the Taiwan High-Mountain Dance, Theatre, Culture and Art</div><div>Service Troupe (hereafter the Troupe), we often hear the elements of electronic and synthesized music. I know this is closely related to your personal life history, particularly your story with your younger brother. Can you tell us a little about you and your brother? How come a person like you who has maintained the tradition for so long started to use synthesized music, which</div><div>even became a main feature of the Troupe’s performance?</div><div><b>Akawyan: </b>My brother is paralyzed. To let him listen to music from different indigenous groups, produce his own music, and put them into the Troup’s performance is a way to give him the courage to live. Because of his physical condition, it is hard for him to know what is happening</div><div>in the outside world. The real strength for him to survive is his music. In our performance, he</div><div>will play his own music on the stage while we are performing. Of course, we can sing without</div><div>any music, but I really want to support him and give him hope. I want him to live like everybody</div><div>else. When his music is being widely played, he will feel that he’s being alive in this world, that he has values. With his music, we can also save some energy when we dance, because singing and dancing at the same time is pretty tiring as well. In a word, I always live between tradition and modernity. I think this is how elders can fit into young people’s community.</div><div><b>Tseng:</b> Is the music we just listened to made for a dance performed by 1500 people?</div><div><b>Akawyan:</b> Not really. This music is an ancient tune sung by the Buyuma Age Group of teenage boys (少年組) . We have a traditional annual ceremony held in December. In our culture, teenage boys, often from the age of 12 to 15, have to go through very cruel training from every August to December to become a real man who can protect the tribe. After this training, they will have another three years of youth training. On the night before the big ceremony, they will have a combat training to boost the spirit. Before the training start, a person will climb to the rooftop</div><div>and provoke other people with his loud and sonorous voice. The tune of his voice is the melodic theme of the music we just heard.</div><div><b>Tseng:</b> If this is boys’ music, can you sing it as well? Can you sing for us a little bit?</div><div><b>Akawyan:</b> Sure. But let me explain it first. People on the north side need to make the voice first, then people on the south will respond to them. After my brother remade the music, we often use it as our background music to symbolize the meaning of looking for our roots or ancestors.</div><div><b>Tseng:</b> Does it mean that whoever has been through the teenage training can recognize the melody right away, even if it’s a recomposed version?</div><div><b>Akaway:</b> yes, they can.</div>",
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"desc": "<span>Aaron Corn - Professor José Jorge de Carvalho, Ph.D., is a professor of Anthropology at the University of Brasília, where he is also Head of the National Research Council’s Institute for Inclusion in Higher Education and Research. He has been the main proponent of the inclusion of Afro-Brazilian and Indigenous student in Brazilian universities. And over the past decade he has delivered a national transcultural program called The Meeting of Knowledges which engages master exponents of Afro-Brazilian and Indigenous performance traditions as researchers and lecturers across fifteen institutions of higher education throughout Brazil. In this presentation, I interviewed Jorge about Indigenous music and dance in Brazil and about this important Meeting of Knowledges program. It is a great privilege to have you on this panel and thank you for being here. So, I was intrigued by the abstract for your paper and in particular I quite liked your use of the term pluriepistemic, because I think it captures so much of the challenges that we face, not only within countries, but across countries talking about Indigeneity as a concept. But first of all, I want to ask you a few fairly rudimentary questions just to give the audience context. So, first of all, in the context where you work in Brazil, what Indigenous music and dance practices are there among the people with whom you work? What role do they play in that part of your world? <br>Jorge – Firstly, to clarify matters, Brazil is a multiracial and multiethnic country. There are 305 different Indigenous nations; and 170 languages, at least. I use a conservative figure; some people say 200, 220 languages even. As the difference between Portuguese and English, there are 170 different languages. When I say Indigenous peoples I mean they will be equivalent of, say, First Nations in Canada or in the United States. Because, with the word Indigenous in Portuguese, apart from the 305 Indigenous Nations, living in different areas, in different parts of the forests, we also have other traditional peoples that you could say are also Indigenous peoples; Afro-Brazilian communities, like the ones we call maroons, who are descendants of “runway slaves”, there are thousands of them; and others who live in different biomes, in different ecological niches, some of them near rivers, by the sea, in the marshlands, with traditional ways of economy, and so on. All of them are different from the Eurocentric dominant white population. In the case of the Indigenous groups, usually music and dance are the main symbols they use to present themselves as different from the others. It is a very complex situation because they are very different from each other. So, we have sometimes like what I call clusters of music and dance that is characteristic of one particular area. Let’s say, one part of the Amazon near Colombia, in the Upper Black River (a tributary 支流of the Amazon river) there are around twenty Nations speaking different languages, but there are certain kinds of dances that are proper to them; and also flute ensembles that characterize that area – and also singing in different languages, but more or less the same genres in singing, in flute playing and in dancing. In another area that I am also familiar with, i.e., the Xingu National Park, dancing, singing and all kinds of flutes (flute being the main musical instrument of the Indigenous people). This situation makes it very difficult to assimilate, since their musics are all very different from Western music, and they are not taught anywhere in our schools. Brazilian people don’t have a clue of what are the Indigenous musical traditions.Apart from that, we have the Afro-Brazilian communities, with other styles of music and dance, and practically with the same patterns, that is, music and dance is the way they present themselves externally to characterize their own styles of living. So, I could say it is a plurimusical and choreographic world that Schools of Music don’t really assimilate; they cannot provide a grammar to understand this plurimusicality. This is the basic, the general aspect: to face incredible diversity, ethnic diversity, plurality of music and dance traditions. In short, this is the most basic panorama that we have. <br>Aaron – So, just to ask a little bit more about the different regions where there are different clusters of Indigenous music and dance practice across clusters of languages. Within Brazil overall could you say that there is some underlying unity, even at the level of, say, where music comes from, in the minds of an Indigenous ontology. Is there any commonality at that level accross the nation, or is that different as well? <br>Jorge – It is a wonderful question. I am, at the moment trying to gather elements to produce a sketch of those clusters. As if, how many, although there are hundreds of genres, hundreds of languages, how many musical systems and dance systems we do have in the country? I am making a taxonomy of more or less seven or eight different musical systems of them. Yes, we could say that one instrument is really the only one musical noise, or sound instrument, that Western music does not accept, which is the maraca, the rattle made of a calabash with seeds of various plants inside. That sound you could say is a kind of Aboriginal sound. All those 305 Nations, they all use the calabash rattle. So, for me this calabash rattle is a kind of pan-Indigenous instrument. In Peru, Colombia, as well, Indigenous people use it in the entire Amazon area. This could be, ontologically, a kind of first sound, if you want, and underlying or primordial sound, the calabash sound. Usually shamans use it, there are various different types of shamanism, but they have in common this rattle sound. This is one underlying unity.The other one is the importance of flutes. They are the main instrument, although there are other ones, like drums, and the body even as a sound instrument, like a drum beating on the floor, but the main musical instrument would be traditional flute, either single, in pairs, small, middle size, gigantic flutes; dry flutes, green flutes. This is, more or less, the answer: there is an underlying unity. Western musical language will have its own characteristics, as we all know; Afro-Brazilian traditions will be different, because drumming and drum ensembles are spread all over the country. <br>Aaron – That’s very interesting. The follow one question from there, I guess, trying to get to the heart of why is that people work so hard to keep their music and dance traditions alive. What is it about music and dance practices among Indigenous people in Brazil that make them so important to those people? So important that they prioritize their survival? <br>Jorge – Music and dance is practically what ties the communities together. They sometimes may start the day just dancing – one social dance to start with: depending on the day and depending on the time of the year there will be other dances for other activities that they will be together. Sometimes visiting, because all the time they are exchanging visits from one village to another. As I said earlier, they usually live like in ethnic clusters of different nations living in a certain area, they exchange through patterns of political exchange, familiar exchange, economic exchange. Usually, one group comes with a dance, a kind of social dance for the others; and the others may respond with their own dance. And sometimes this exchange pattern increases like a spiral for, say, important regional meetings. Like the one, absolutely extraordinary, called Kwaryp, a ceremony for the dead. For instance, one village of a Nation makes once a year a ceremony for the dead and invites the other nations to participate as guests in that one. So, sometimes, if the village has two hundred, three hundred people, there may be thousands of people dancing in circles that great Kwarup dance. Political distinctions, ethnic distinctions will appear in the way they will paint their bodies for dance. So, the signs are the musical signs, the choreographic signs and visual signs, and they all go together. And sometimes language comes in songs, so that some singing traditions may reproduce older languages, i.e., lost languages that they can only hear in ritual, only sacred languages that you can only listen to them in singing. So, it is like a big archive of their memory, in singing those particular songs in that old language. <br>Aaron – This is sounding very familiar. This happens in Australia as well. So, we are talking about trade network, diplomacy between groups, we are talking about marriage and family lineages. You mentioned funerals, I think, at one point. So, most of these regional cultures, there is an underlying set of Indigenous religious beliefs. Is it one part of what is going on as well? <br>Jorge – Yes, it is what I use to call the epistemology of the living cosmos. That is the essay I just wrote on this. Because the epistemology of the living cosmos means the entire cosmos is alive, that the elements of nature are all exchanging, and listening, and talking. There is an extraordinary flute, the Jacuí flute, a sacred flute that women cannot see. So, they are usually kept inside the men’s house. For instance, the Indigenous master who came to the University of Brasília to teach that flute, he made another one of wood (while the sacred flute is made of bamboo). So, he made a wooden replica that women can see. So, as he left his Amazon village, takes the boat, then takes the bus and finally arrives at the university, and women will attend the class, he plays only the wooden flute, being the musical substitute to that Jacuí flute. Because women can only listen, but they cannot see that particular flute. That flute sometimes is a spirit in itself (of course, the original bamboo flute). So, the cosmological dimension is all the time implicit in all those traditions. For instance, in order to learn the Jacuí and becomes a great Jacuí player, around three and four in the morning there is a particular bird that sings in the forest. The young flutist has to go and listen, because that bird will teach him to play certain melodies in the flute. The music will be an exchange between the flute player and a particular bird. He has to go to the forest and find the bird. Only that bird will have the particular melody. <br>Aaron – Brazil and Australia have a lot in common, there is a lot that is familiar. There is a lot of secrecy in instruments, the idea of spirits of animals possessing songs, or melodies that can be taught. Many other things that will follow up, hopefully, in the discussion afterwards. So we can talk about the work of your Institute. firstly, I would like to ask in these regional communities throughout Brazil, in different parts, what kinds of strategies exist within those communities currently to keep Indigenous music and dance traditions alive? <br>Jorge – We have initiation practices. The girls will learn their own dancing through initiation, when they are eleven or twelve. After the first menarche they will be secluded, and older women will teach them that particular repertoire and those particular female style of dancing. Boys will do the same of that, taught by older men, through fishing, hunting, and so on, with all the association with dancing and singing. But they are all worried now about the transmission of these traditions. So, in a certain sense, I regard the Meeting of Knowledges as kind of spirit of the time, a Zeitgeist. The idea of bringing masters to the university is the right moment, because some of those initiations are very hard, and as they become more connected to the outside world, not all the young people are dedicating the amount of time necessary to learn and memorize because it is all orally transmitted traditions. Sometimes an entire repertoire, say, of hundreds and hundreds of songs the young will learn from the masters, who will demand a continued connection with them. If the young leave the village and go to town for a while, they miss the chance to learn the entire repertoire. So, the strategy we offer to connect with them is the Meeting of Knowledges: first, they come to the university to teach as temporary or visiting lecturers, because they are the only ones who can properly teach their own musical traditions. As I use to say, masters are unrepresentable. One cannot represent their knowledge; they have to come and represent their own traditions. But what is happening in practically all the universities that opened the Meeting of Knowledges is that they are coming with a disciple. In the Meeting of Knowledge the master comes – a female or a male master comes – usually with a kind of senior disciple, someone who will later continue transmitting their tradition. So, he comes with a disciple, one or two sometimes, acting as translator, to speak to us, because some of them don’t really speak Portuguese. In those cases, they will speak their own language, with another person (the disciple) translating. And we have what we call the partner professor, the partner lecture in the classroom dialoguing, or helping him to dialogue. And we are registering in video recording all the classes, in all the universities – already there are fifteen universities in the network of the Meeting ok Knowledges.\tAnd that is a part of our pedagogy: all the classes have to be videotaped because this is the first time it is happening, for it is also a pedagogical innovation. So much new information comes in a class of the masters that we will need a long time to really transcribe, analyze and think of all those issues presented by them. Then, the young Indigenous will do this task of translation and assistance to the master as part of the protocol. We have many protocols in the Meeting of Knowledges. One of them is that we pay them the same amount we pay for a visiting professor or a substitute professor, or a temporary lecturer, depending on each university. The second protocol is that we register, we videorecord the classes. The third, young Indigenous people come as disciples, and we give them a HD (Hard Drive) with a copy of all the classes the master gave. They bring the HDs to the villages. For instance, the jacuí flute repertoire is around 500 different melodies and pieces. When Master Arifirá came, the pieces he played we taped them and they are all back to the Matipu village. Sometimes when they come, they also dance, sing and we register that. So, we are helping them to organized archives of their repertories. They are feeling the necessity also to have these copies. Some villages now have computers. So, the idea is that we now replicate their repertoires, so that the different nations will have a copy of their repertoires, their own archives. And we also have a copy of all of them, just in case. In University of Brasília we have a lot, because the Institute is located here; but there is a lot in Minas Gerais, and so on, so we are all making the archives with the lectures of the Meeting of Knowledges nationwide. That is a strategy to keep the memory alive, some of them may die, so the great masters will somehow survive, as the young people will have the videorecording of their knowledges. This is all new. Aaron – So, you said Meeting of Knowledges is across fifteen universities? That is extraordinary! That is wonderful! <br>Jorge – Extraordinary that happened in a few years, because in 2010 we started in Brasília, and that was a sort of pilot course. I invented this methodology of having the partner lecturer, and the course given in modules, because masters cannot stay with us for too long, because they live in their communities, so usually they teach a module of two or three weeks. The master will come and teach three times a week, and we will also have other dialogues with them. After that module, another master will come. In the first course we invited five masters, or sometimes four. We opened the course in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and then in 2014 we made a second agreement with the Ministry of Culture to expand the Meeting of Knowledges to five universities. We chose four more: Minas Gerais, Pará (which is in the Amazon region) and other areas. In 2015 it expanded even more, so that in this year we would reach 20, but we stopped, for we are completely closed with the quarantine, the Institute is closed since March 2020. Next year hopefully it will reach 20 universities. And we started now, which is quite extraordinary, in Vienna, at the MDW (University of Music and Performing Arts). I just gave the two initial lectures there with Ursula Hemetek three weeks ago. The Meeting of Knowledges is in Colombia also, and in Ecuador they may start soon. I think the necessity for it is worldwide. The traditional peoples, the Indigenous peoples worldwide have been excluded, silenced, as far as the academic world is concerned, as a voice with autonomy to teach. Of course, there will be interviews and many supports for them, but not allowing them to be in the place that we occupy, the place that Lacan defines as ‘the subject supposed to know’. We are the epistemic authorities, that is, we never accepted that Indigenous people can also be the epistemic authority, equivalent to ours. <br>Aaron – Yes, I think that is a very common challenge. I think that is something that we find in conflicts that we are talking accross this panel. So, in the time that you’ve been running your program and expanding it to different universities, you must also have developed an awful lot of trust from communities to become involved and feel that their cultural material is safe with the universities. Was that difficult in the beginning? <br>Jorge – No, not necessarily, because prior to the Meeting of Knowledges, as I say, we had first politics of inclusion. An incredibly difficult task was the opening of cuotas (affirmative action) that we started in the beginning of this century, in the first decade of this millennium. It was a long struggle to make sure that young Indigenous students could come to universities. Here we call them cuotas, I don’t know what system there is in Australia, what they call affirmative action in the U.S.A. But here in Brazil is a percentage, really: 20% of the places for Black students and a defined number for Indigenous. This will be the first type of inclusion – ethnic and racial inclusion. So, classes now in universities are multiethnic and multiracial: you have whites, you have Blacks, you have Indigenous, you have Maroons, and also poor students. So, a second type of inclusion will be the epistemic inclusion, because the curriculum is very Eurocentric. So, as the Indigenous students come to learn all about Western culture, they said: when are we going to discuss our own traditions? Lecturers were not prepared for that, the curriculum wasn’t prepared for that. So, the second move will be the epistemic inclusion. Luckily, the young Indigenous students were already present in the universities when the Meeting of Knowledges started. So, there is a link, you see. Now we have what I call a double inclusion: ethnic-racial, and epistemic. The young Indigenous come from their own communities to the universities; and now the masters, the senior knowledgeable people will come to teach them – and teach also the White and Black students. So, a second, complementary multiethnic conviviality, or coexistence will appear, which is the epistemic coexistence. To answer your question, I would say the trust is there, because we had already established a connection with them. <br>Aaron – It sounds like you have developed a very good model in Brazil for sharing the academic space in Brazil and I think that is something that a lot of other countries can probably learn from. That’s very encouraging. I guess the final question, because we are probably near the twenty minutes mark now. The final question is that you know, obviously the world is not a perfect place and probably never will be, but what do you think are the main challenges right now to progress in your work further? <br>Jorge – The one challenge we have now is how to legitimize the program. We need the transformation of our institutions. The Humboldtian model of university will have to shift to something different. We will have to change the curriculum, and we have to legitimize their presence as lecturers. What we are doing now, which is quite revolutionary, is what we call Notório Saber in Portuguese: ‘Acknowledged Higher Knowledge’ will be a good translation. There is a movement in various universities, such as Brasília, Minas Gerais, Rio de Janeiro, in which the Academic Council will certify masters to have a title equivalent to a doctorate, so that he/she are fully certified to teach. This is quite a leap forward, because at some point you will give to someone who is illiterate the title of a doctor, of a Ph.D. But that is the challenge that is put to us: either you do it or you will never be able to decolonize academy. This is the impasse, as we say. It is an epistemic impasse. It is wonderful. We are just preparing now what we call the Memorial, which is a kind of biographical file with the story of the deeds of the masters – like a musical biography, or a choreographic biography of a master, and one professor will speak on behalf of him/her, i.e., will defend his/her biography in the Academic Council; and if it is accepted, the Council will vote: yes, such and such master can have the title of Notório Saber (Acknowledge Higher knowledge). Once we get this title for the masters, then we will have a good foundation for the Meeting of Knowledges, and their names can there in the syllabus. <br>Aaron – So, is that kind of recognition honorary or is it an examination process?<br>Jorge – It is honorary. It can’t be an examination as ours, I don’t think it makes sense. I don’t know what you mean exactly by honorary, but it is not like an Honoris Causa, which is honorary. The title we are asking to be given to the masters is a kind of certification, like a diploma, but not through a process of examination. A memorial is like a biography. For instance, when I became a full professor I had to present all my Curriculum Vitae for the Council. Notório Saber is as if you build an equivalent of a Curriculum Vitae for the master: he/she is an equivalent of a Ph.D. in a certain traditional ceremony, or a musical genre, etc. <br>Aaron – That is interesting, because I think we probably have slightly different systems for advancing people to academic ranks, but for me the final frontier is to be able to acknowledge that the training one undertakes to learn, let’s say, a repertoire of esoteric songs in an Indigenous tradition, the level of inquiry and awareness of what knowledge is, and how knowledge is created through songs is equivalent to writing a dissertation. To me, this is the final frontier: to recognize that as a real qualification. <br>Jorge – Yes, it is something of this sort, but it will always be a certification that works as a dialogue: that our academic world accepts and acknowledges that other epistemes can be equivalent to ours. <br>Aaron – We have a lot in common. <br>Jorge – Wonderful!<br>Aaron – My own approach is quite similar, our systems are obviously different, but I’ve attempted similar things and had some kind of success. I think what Brazil is showing us though is that the national network that you’ve developed is probably quite unique. A national network is something that I don’t know if exists in other countries, but it is the first time I’ve come across to something as coherent as that. And that’s very very exciting.<br>Jorge – Wonderful. We must continue the dialogue and exchange, between our Institutes, in Taiwan, Australia and Brazil, we must think of doing things in common. <br>Aaron – Well, this is getting into free discussion now and we’ll close up here. I often think that, like you, I’m sitting here in the Southern Hemisphere continent, with its own soil, its own stars and the night sky and I wonder why it is that we keep on looking to the Northern Hemisphere for direction, it’s the way that we think and the way that we see ourselves in the world. Because that’s not where we are. <br>Jorge – No. Aaron – And I think that South America and Australia in particular have an awfully lot in common and certainly what we said tonight makes me think that there are commonalities there that I wasn’t really particularly aware of them before. So, thank you very much for your presentation and we hopefully pick up these present discussion questions afterwards. Thank you. <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>Aaron Corn ：José Jorge de Carvalho 是巴西利亞大學的人類學教授，同時也擔任該校國家研究委員會之高等教育暨研究的包容性研究所所長。他一直是巴西大學推動黑人及原住民學生平權行動的主要支持者。在過去的十年中，他策劃了名為「知識相遇」（Meeting of Knowledges）的國家級跨文化學程，在15 所巴西高等教育機構中將非裔巴西和原住民表演傳統藝師聘用為正規課程的講師和研究人員 。在今天的演講中，我將訪談 Jorge， 請他暢談巴西原住民樂舞現況以及他重要的「知識相遇」學習計畫。 非常榮幸能邀請你參加這個小組討論會，也謝謝你的參與。我深深受到您的演講摘要的啟發，並且特別喜歡你對於“pluriepistemic”（多重認知的）這個字的用法，因為這也表達出我們正在面臨的許多挑戰，不只侷限於任何一個國家，而是跨越國境去探討”Indigeneity”（原生性）這個概念。因此首先請問你，在你所工作的巴西這個環境以及你所共事的原住民族群中，有多少種原住民樂舞的實踐傳統，以及它們在你所生存的那個世界角落中扮演何種角色？<br>Jorge ：首先，我必須釐清現狀。巴西是一個多民族多種族的國家，現存 305 個原住民族，操 170 多種語言（我使用的是保守估計，甚至有人主張有200, 220 種語言）。如果以葡萄牙語和英語這樣的差異性來看，大約有170種語言。當我提及“Indigenous peoples」（原住民族群）時，我指的是等同於加拿大和美國所謂的“First Nations” （最早居住的民族）；因為在葡萄牙語裡，“Indigenous”這個詞也同時代表在 305 個居住各地的原住民族群之外的其他族群，那就是非裔巴西人。比如我們所稱的馬龍人 (Maroons)，他們是從美國逃亡到南美的黑奴後裔，有數千人。還有其他居住在不同生物群落和生態區的非裔巴西人，有些臨河、有些在海邊、有些在沼澤地、具有傳統的經濟型態，這些族群都有別於歐洲中心的主體人口白人。在這樣的情況下，音樂和舞蹈通常是原住民族群用來表現他們有別於其他族群的主要象徵。由於它們都各不相同，所以情況其實很複雜。因此我們有時會用「樂舞集群」（clusters of music and dance）這個概念來描述具有相似樂舞特性的特定地區。比方說，哥倫比亞附近的亞馬遜流域，在黑河上游（亞馬遜河的支流）有大約二十個民族說不同的語言，但卻有特定類型的舞蹈流通於其間；還有笛子合奏也是該地區的代表特色；此外，雖以不同語言歌唱，但在歌唱、長笛演奏和舞蹈方面或多或少呈現相似型態。還有另一個我也熟悉的地區，即新谷國家公園，跳舞、唱歌和各種笛子（笛子是巴西原住民族的主要樂器）情況也類似。 這種情況使得原住民音樂不易被全面理解，因為他們的音樂非常不同於西方音樂，而全國各地的學校都沒有教授這些音樂。 巴西人對於原住民音樂傳統毫無概念。除此之外，我們還有非裔巴西社群，具有其他類型的音樂和舞蹈，而實務上也呈現相同模式，亦即，音樂和舞蹈是他們對外表達自身獨特生活型態的方式。所以，我可以說這是一個眾多音樂學校皆無法全面理解的多元音樂和舞蹈世界，他們無法提供能夠理解這種多元音樂性的法則。 這是基本、普遍的面向：面對令人難以置信的多樣性、種族多樣性、音樂和舞蹈傳統的多樣性。 簡而言之，這是我們所擁有最基本的一個全景。<br>Aaron：我想再多了解一些有關不同地區具有跨越語言群落的不同原住民樂舞傳統這件事，就整個巴西來說，你能否說他具有一些潛在的統一性呢？甚至在有關音樂起源的層級，亦即原住民本體論方面的歷史記憶？在各個族群之間是否存在著共通性？或是各自不同呢？<br>Jorge：好問題。我目前正試著整合種種要素去完成音樂群聚的草圖。比方說，有多少種？雖然有上百種的樂種、上百種的語言，到底在這個國家中有多少個樂舞系統？就我的研究來說，大致有七到八種音樂系統。是的，我們可以說有一種獨一無二的樂器（西方音樂不認為是樂器，而是種能夠發出音樂噪音或聲響的器具），maraca，一種由裝有各式植物種子的葫蘆所製成的嘎嘎器（譯者註：即一般所稱的沙鈴）。這種聲響可視為一種原住民的聲響。所有這305個族群都使用葫蘆沙鈴。這是第一個潛在的統一性。另外一個是笛子的重要性。 它們是主要的樂器，雖然還有其他的，比如鼓、甚至身體作為一種聲響樂器，敲打地板猶如鼓一般，但主要的樂器是傳統笛，有單管笛、雙管笛、小的， 中等大小、及巨大的笛子； 也有乾燥的笛子，新鮮竹子做的的笛子。以上事實多多少少可以做為答案：潛在的統一性是存在的。正如我們都知道，西方音樂語言具有自己的特色。 而非裔巴西人的傳統則有所不同，因為鼓樂和鼓樂合奏團遍布全國。<br>Aaron：這很有趣。 接下來的一個問題，我想試圖深入了解為什麼人們如此努力去維護他們的音樂和舞蹈傳統的存續。 是什麼讓音樂和舞蹈實踐對巴西原住民來說如此重要？重要到他們會優先考慮樂舞文化的存續？<br>Jorge ：音樂和舞蹈將社區實際地聯結在一起。 他們有時可能會以跳舞開始新的一天：以一種社交舞蹈開始。而依據一年中的特定日子和節期，他們也有配合其他活動的其他舞蹈來讓大家聚在一起。有時會相互拜訪，因為他們的村落與村落之間總是不斷在互相交流。正如我先前所說，他們通常以不同部族各自居住在特定地區的族群型態生活著，並透過政治交流、家族交流、經濟交流等方式來互動。 通常，一個族群跳著一支舞，一種為其他人準備的社交舞； 而其他人可能會用自己的舞蹈回應。 有時，這種交流模式在重要的區域會議中會形成螺旋式的增長。例如有個村落就有一種非常精彩的舞蹈叫做 Kwaryp，一種為亡者舉辦的儀式。 例如，一個部族的某個村莊每年為亡者舉辦一次儀式，並邀請其他部族以客人的身分來參與這個儀式。所以有時候，如果村莊中有兩、三百位居民，那麼可能會有成千個人圍成圈跳著那偉大的Kwarup 舞。 政治上的區別，種族上的區別都會出現在他們為跳舞而彩繪自己身體的方式上。所以，符號包含音樂符號、舞蹈符號和視覺符號的整體結合。 而有時侯，歌曲是有歌詞的，因此某些歌唱傳統可能會沿用較古老的語言，亦即那些只能在儀式中聽到的失傳語言，或者是僅能在歌唱中聽到的宗教語言。 所以，以古老語言吟唱那些特別的歌曲，就像他們的一個巨大的記憶檔案。<br>Aaron：這聽起來很熟悉。 這也發生在澳洲。 所以，我們談論的是貿易網絡、族群之間的外交、我們談論的是婚姻和家族血統。 我記得你曾在某一個點提到過葬禮。 因此，大多是的區域文化中都有著一套潛在的原住民宗教信仰。在巴西也是這樣嗎？<br>Jorge ：有一種很特別的笛子，Jacuí笛，是一種女性不能看的神笛， 因此它們通常被放在在男人的房子裡。 例如，原住民藝師來到巴西利亞大學教授這種笛子時，他會用木頭製作另一支（神笛是用竹子製成的）， 於是，他製作了一個女性可以看的木製複製品。 所以當他離開他的亞馬遜村莊，乘船、轉搭公共汽車，最後終於到達大學，女人們也能一同上課，他只吹木笛，作為Jacuí笛的音樂替代品。 因為女人只能聆聽，卻不能直視那種特殊的長笛。 有時那支笛子本身就是一個靈（當然，指的是原本的竹笛）。是的，這就是我所說的活宇宙認識論， 我才剛寫完一篇關於這個的文章。 因為活宇宙認識論認為整個宇宙都是活的，自然的元素都是在交流、在聆聽、在說話。因此，宇宙的面向一直隱含在所有這些傳統中。 例如，為了學習 Jacuí 並成為一名出色的 Jacuí 演奏家，凌晨三四點左右，有一隻很特別的鳥在會森林裡唱歌。 年輕的長笛手必須前去聆聽，因為那隻鳥會教他用笛子演奏某些旋律。 音樂將是笛子演奏者和這隻特別的鳥之間的交流。 他必須去森林裡找到那隻鳥，只有那隻鳥才會有特殊的旋律。<br>Aaron：巴西和澳洲有很多共同點，也有很多相似處，如樂器的神祕性、動物的靈魂擁有可以被傳授的歌曲或旋律的想法等，希望在之後的討論中可以有更多其他事情湧現。 那麼現在我們可以談談你的研究中心的工作。首先，我想問問在巴西不同地區的這些區域社群，目前存在哪些策略去保持原住民音樂和舞蹈傳統的存續？<br>Jorge：我們有成人儀式。透過成人儀式，女孩們會在十一歲或十二歲時學習自己的舞蹈。在第一次月經初潮之後，她們將被隔離，由年長女性來教她們特定的曲目和女性特有的舞蹈風格。男孩的情況也類似，由年長男人透過釣魚、打獵等活動來教育他們，而這一切都與跳舞和唱歌緊密連結。但他們現在都擔心這些傳統的傳承。所以，在某種意義上，我將「知識相遇」視為一種Zeitgeist，亦即「時代精神」。將大師在正確的時機帶到大學的想法，是因為其中一些成人儀式非常困難，而且隨著他們與外界的聯繫越來越緊密，不是所有的年輕人都願意花足夠的時間去學習和記憶這些口耳相傳的傳統。有時，當年輕人從大師學習動輒上百首的一套完整曲目，大師會要求與他們持續的保持聯繫。如果年輕人離開村莊去鎮上一段時日，他們就會錯過學習完整曲目的機會。因此，「知識相遇」就是我們提供他們之間建立聯繫的一種策略：首先，他們作為短期或客座講師來大學任教，因為他們是唯一能夠正確教授自己的音樂傳統的人。正如我常說的，大師是無法替代的。沒有人可以代替他們傳授知識，他們必須親身前來代表自己的傳統。在所有開設「知識相遇」課程的大學中所發生的實際情況是，他們通常帶著弟子前來。 這些或男或女的大師們來參加「知識相遇」課程時通常會帶著一位資深弟子一起到來，後者之後將成為他們傳統傳習者。 所以，大師們會帶著一、或兩個門徒來擔任翻譯，好與我們溝通，因為他們有些人甚至不會說葡萄牙語。 在這些情況下，他們會說自己的語言，並由他們的弟子作翻譯。 我們有所謂的伙伴教授，專職在課堂中引導對話的進行，而我們也為所有在這些大學中實施的課程作影像紀錄——目前已經有 15 所大學加入「知識相遇」的課程網絡。這是我們教學法的一部分：所有課程都必須被記錄，因為這些課程都是首創，也都是教學法的創新。 在大師的課堂裡有如此多的新資訊湧入，我們需要很長時間才能真正逐字紀錄、分析並思考他們所呈現的議題。而後，作為協議的一部分，這些年輕的原住民將擔任轉譯和協助大師的任務。我們在「知識相遇」計畫中有許多協議， 其中之一是我們支付給他們的薪資與支付給訪問教授、代理教授或客座講師的金額相同，依據每所大學各自的情況而定。第二個協議是我們授權並對課程進行錄影。第三，年輕原住民前來作為弟子，我們會給他們一個裝滿大師所傳授全部課程的硬碟，讓他們將此硬碟帶回村莊。例如，jacuí 笛大約有 500 種不同的旋律和曲目。當 Arifirá 大師來的時候，我們把他演奏的曲子錄了下來，於是它們都回到了馬蒂普村。有時當他們來的時候，他們也會跳舞、唱歌，我們都會記錄下來。就這樣，我們不斷在幫助他們整理他們自己的曲目檔案。他們也感到有必要擁有這些檔案。一些村莊現在有了電腦。所以，整個概念就是，我們現在先複製他們的曲目，以讓不同的部族擁有他們自己曲目的副本、他們自己的檔案。而我們也會保留所有這些副本，以防萬一。在巴西利亞大學我們有很多的檔案，因為研究中心就座落在這裡；但是米納斯. 吉拉斯州也有很多…等等，於是我們都在運用遍佈全國的「知識相遇」課程來製作檔案。這是一種保持記憶存續的策略，雖然大師們會漸漸凋零，但他們卻以某種方式生存下來，因為年輕人擁有他們技藝的影音紀錄。這一切都是全新的。<br>Aaron：所以你說知識相遇能夠跨越15個宇宙？那這是太神奇、太美妙了！<br>Jorge：神奇的是，這一切是在幾年之內發生的，因為 2010 年我們才從巴西利亞開始所謂的前導課程。我發明了合作講師以及模組授課的教學法，因為大師不能和我們在一起太久，他們習慣住在自己的社群，所以通常他們每次教二到三週的模組課程。大師們每週來教三次，我們同時也會和他們進行其他的對話。一個模組課程結束後，另一位大師會來。在第一門課程中，我們邀請了五位大師，有時是四位。我們在 2010 年、2011 年、2012 年、2013 年開設該課程，然後在 2014 年，我們與文化部簽訂第二份協議，將「知識相遇」計畫擴大到五所大學。我們又選擇了四個：米納斯. 吉拉斯州、帕拉州（位於亞馬遜地區）和其他地區。 2015 年它擴大得更多，而今年我們會達到 20 所，但我們停止了，因為我們因著防疫隔離而完全關閉，研究中心從 2020 年 3 月起關閉。希望明年能達到 20 所大學。非常奇妙地，我們現在正在維也納的 MDW（音樂與表演藝術大學）開始啟動。三週前，我才剛在 Ursula Hemetek 那裡做了兩個初步的講座。 「知識相遇」也在哥倫比亞舉辦，厄瓜多爾可能很快就會開始。 我認為它的必要性是全球性的。就學術界而言，傳統民族和原住民族群被排斥、被噤聲，去成為一種教學自主性的聲音。 當然，他們會受訪談，也接受許多支援，但不允許他們出現在被我們佔據的地方，一個拉康定義為「應該被知道的主體」的地方。 我們是認知的主體，也就是說，我們從未接受原住民也可以是認知主體，與我們相當。<br>Aaron：是的，我認為這是一個非常普遍的挑戰。 這是我們共同感受到的衝突點因此透過這個小組討論會來探討。所以，在你執行你的計畫並將它擴展到不同的大學的時候，你一定也和社群之間發展出驚人的信任度，他們開始參與進來，並覺得他們的文化素材在大學中是安全的。一開始有很困難嗎？<br>Jorge：不，不一定需要，因為在執行「知識相遇」計畫之前，正如我所說，我們有了第一個包容性的政策。我們在本世紀初展開的“ cuotas”（平權行動），一項極其艱鉅的任務，在本世紀的第一個十年。一場漫長的奮鬥以確保年輕原住民學生能夠進入大學。在這裡，我們稱之為 “cuotas”（配額），我不知道澳洲有什麼制度，在美國他們稱之為平權行動。但在巴西這裡是一個百分比，真的：黑人學生佔 20% 的名額，而原住民學生也有一定數量的配額。這將是第一種類型的包容行動—民族和種族的包容。所以，現在大學裡的課程是多民族和多種族的：有白人，有黑人，有原住民，有馬龍人，還有貧困學生。因此，第二種的包容將是認知包容，因為課程設計是非常歐洲中心的。所以當原住民學生來學習所有的西方文化時，他們說：我們什麼時候可以討論我們自己的傳統呢？講師沒有為此做好準備，課程設計也沒有為此做好準備。因此，第二步驟將是認知包容。幸運的是，當「知識相遇」計畫開始時，年輕的原住民學生已經在大學裡了。 所以你看，其間是有鏈接的。 現在我們具有了我稱之為雙重的包容：民族-種族的，以及認知的。 年輕的原住民從自己的社區來到大學，而現在大師們，知識淵博的資深人士，會來教他們，也教白人與黑人學生。 因此，第二種互補的、多元族群的歡樂或共存將會出現，這就是認知共存。 回應你的問題，我會說信任是存在的，因為我們已經與他們建立了聯繫。<br>Aaron：聽起來你在巴西已開發了一個很好的模式來分享學術空間，我認為這可能是許多其他國家可以學習的東西。 這非常令人鼓舞。 我想我再問最後一個問題，因為我們現在可能已經接近二十分鐘了。 最後一個問題是，您知道，顯然世界不是一個完美的地方，而且可能永遠不會是，但您認為目前在進一步推動您未來工作的主要挑戰是什麼？<br>Jorge：我們現在面臨的一個挑戰是如何使這個學系計畫合法化。 我們需要改革我們的機構。 洪堡式的大學模式的運用將會有助轉向。 我們必須改變課程設計，我們必須合法化他們的講師身分。我們現在正在做的事情是非常具有革命性的，就是我們在葡萄牙語中所說的Notório Saber：「受認可的高層知識」會是一個不錯的翻譯。 在巴西利亞、米納斯. 吉拉斯州、里約熱內盧等各所大學已經展開了一項運動，學術委員會將認證這些大師等同於博士學位的頭銜，以便他/她們能夠完全合法地進行教學。 這是一個相當大的躍進，因為在某些時候，你會給一個不識字的人一個博士、或是哲學博士的頭銜。 但這就是我們面臨的挑戰：你要不就做下去，要不你就永遠無法使學院去殖民化。正如我們所說，這就是僵局。 這是一個認知僵局。 這真是棒極了。 我們現在正在準備我們所謂的「紀念文」（Memorial），這是一種傳記文件，記錄大師們的事蹟——就像一份大師的音樂傳記、或者舞蹈傳記，而一位教授將代表他/她發言，亦即，將在學術委員會中為他/她的傳記作辯護； 如果被接受，委員會將投票：是的，某某大師可以擁有Notório Saber（認可為更高的知識）的頭銜。 一旦我們為大師們爭取到這個稱號，那麼我們將為「知識相遇」學習計畫打下良好的基礎，而他們的名字也可以在教學大綱中出現。<br>Aaron：那麼，這是一種種榮譽認證，還是一種考試過程？<br>Jorge：這是榮譽認證。 這不可能像我們的考試，我認為這沒有意義。 我不知道你所說的榮譽具體指的是什麼，但它不像 Honoris Causa，它是榮譽制的。 我們要求授予大師的稱號是一種認證，就像文憑一樣，但不是通過考試的過程。 「紀念文」就像傳記。 例如，當我成為一名正教授時，我必須向學術委員會發表我一生所有的經歷（Curriculum Vitae）。 Notório Saber 就好像你為大師建立了一份學術經歷：他/她等同於一位在某個傳統儀式或音樂流派等等領域中的哲學博士。<br>Aaron：這很有趣，我想，因為我們在提升學術等級的系統方面可能略有不同，但對我來說，最後的底線是必須能夠承認一個人所接受的培訓。比如說，原住民傳統中的深奧歌曲，其探究的層級、所具備知識的認知、以及知識如何透過歌曲被創造，就相當於寫一篇博士論文。 對我來說，這是最後的邊界：認可這是真正合格的。<br>Jorge：是的，它就是這樣的東西，但它始終是一種可以作為對話的證明：我們的學術界接受並承認其他認識論可以與我們的認識論有相同價值。<br>Aaron：我們有很多相同之處。<br>Jorge：太棒了！<br>Aaron：我自己的方法非常相似，我們的系統顯然不同，但我嘗試過類似的事情並取得了某種成功。 我認為巴西向我們展示的是，您創建的全國性網絡，我認為可能是非常獨特的。 我不知道其他國家是否存在全國性網絡，但這是我第一次遇到像你們如此一致性的東西。 這非常非常令人興奮。<br>Jorge：太美好了。 我們必須繼續對話交流，在台灣、澳洲和巴西的研究機構之間，我們必須考慮共同做一些事情。<br>Aaron：好的，現在進入自由討論時間，我們將在這裡結束。 我經常想，和你一樣，我坐在南半球大陸，有自己的土壤，自己的星星和夜空，我很好奇為什麼我們一直向著北半球在尋找方向？這是我們思考的方式以及我們在世界上看待自己的方式。 因為那不是我們所存在的地方。<br>Jorge：不是的。<br>Aaron：我認為南美和澳洲尤其有很多共同點，當然我們今晚所說的讓我想到有一些過去並沒有特別意識到的共同點。 所以，非常感謝你的演講，希望接下來的討論能夠延續我們正在探討的這些問題。 謝謝你。<br></span>",
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